Between the profoundly disruptive and the profoundly incremental

A Constructive Programme conversation with Simon Cross

I’ve just returned from the Outdoor Arts UK Conference in Cambridge, where I gave the keynote speech to a bunch of brilliant, radical, fun, joyous and street-based performers. I’ve shared the video from that talk over on the Absurd Intelligence newsletter, and why I believe that outdoor artists are at the very centre of a new, real democracy — because on the streets of our neighbourhood is where we all need to be, right?

Which links nicely to the conversation I had towards the end of last year with Simon Cross, in the other half of Oxbridge, where he works for the Bishop of Oxford and the Church of England’s Faith in Public Life Parliamentary Unit.

The conversation with Simon is part of my ongoing research into what a Constructive Programme for the UK might be right now, inspired by the work of Gandhi, and rooting my research first of all in the spiritual foundations of the work we need to do. It’s this spiritual work that is essential for any transformation of our democracy (into a real one) to stick, when things begin to get really difficult: things like ecosystem collapse, food and water bankruptcy, rising authoritarianism, as people’s homes become unliveable through extreme weather events.

Simon is not (as far as I know!) an outdoor arts performer! He is, though, an ordained deacon with a PHD in theology — and, from my climate perspective, very interestingly he worked as an airline pilot for Thomas Cook Airlines for fifteen years.

Much of our conversation was an analysis of where we’re at, but also — as in the title to this post — an honest asking of ourselves, where we (perhaps all of us) sit or stand between the profoundly disruptive nature of what’s happening, and the profoundly incremental sense of response to the unfolding shitshow around us.

There are not definitive answers. But exploring the question with frankness and love really, really helps.

The conversation was a few months ago, so some of the references we make are now a little old, but I feel the essence of what we discussed is valuable for this moment.

“The past is absolutely not a reliable guide”

As Simon explains it, the times we are moving through may feel to some like entering parenthood. No matter how many books you read, how much advice you get, nothing in your life before prepares you for what you’re now in. Much of that in parenthood is a joy, of course. It is infused with a completely new kind of love. Is there a way that we can maintain that kind of love for one another, not only but especially for the next generations, while the conditions of breakdown and collapse are going to lead to fascism and a destabilised geopolitics, and more war.

As we discuss, we are in the age of chaotic transition:

“The battle over AI is a religious war”

Simon’s work with the Bishop of Oxford is research-led, particularly the ethical aspects of technology, and advising on the Church’s policy and legislative activity in these areas in the House of Lords. This part of our conversation has stayed with me, because I’d not heard this perspective on AI before.

What is being debated and written about all over is, as Simon says, the fact that on AI and tech, “this is a battle of ideologies, and those particular ideologies now are being cashed out through particular interpretations and implementations of technology.”

But what Simon makes the case for, is the way in which “religion is at the heart and center of a set of debates about AI’s potentialities, and it is fundamentally a set of religious wars as far as I’m concerned.”

Here are his own words:

“Wrestling with existential risks”

I hope that gives you a flavour of the whole conversation, which is below: the video if you want, or the audio if that suits you better on the go. Please watch or listen, as the conversation with Simon has massively helped me “wrestle with existential risks” as he puts it, but grounded in practices of love, compassion, and, perhaps most interestingly, continuation.

I say that, because with sharing Simon Cross’ conversation, I’ve come to the end of this set of half a dozen or so initial explorations of the spiritual foundations of a new Constructive Programme. There are tonnes of conversations I still want to have, and it has by no means been exhausted. How could it? But there’s already so much going around in my head, hopefully yours too, that what I want to do is begin to synthesise my thoughts along the way, and share them, for feedback, chat, and challenge.

Here’s the edited conversation between Simon and myself:

And the audio for on the go:

Thank you Simon!